Steam Release, Elitism, and Game longevity .

[guardian of fortuide.1724]

Hello everyone, My Name is Guardian. I played GW2 religiously in vanilla many years ago I have almost 1,000 hours logged just in vanilla and Iv just returned to find all this new glorious content that has come out over the years. To my dismay I found it very unappealing to do what I find the most fun in MMO's which is raid content and ill get to the reasons why in a alittle bit but first I would like to talk about my journey up to this point after my return about a month ago.

 

So I seen recently that GW2 was going to release a new expansion in Cantha. Factions being my absolute favorite aesthetic of any game of all time I am very excited for this also I hear that GW2 will now be releasing on steam very shortly, and many of my friends hope to try out the game when it comes to the steam marketplace. So I hop back into the game and wow there is alot of new content. This is where I run into my first issue with the current state of GW2, not the players but the state of how complicated it is to get Ascended gear for new and returning players, even with tons of resources and guides out there I found it very convoluted and off putting figuring out how to obtain ascended armor, and if I wasn't such a massive fan of the Guild Wars franchise I would have probably played through the new expansion content HoT and PoF and called it a day, because its just way to messy figuring out everything needed to get the elusive ascended gear. and I feel like this is our first road block. When new players will come through steam I want there to be a second wave of Guild Wars fans I want the game to take off again but I feel this path to getting ascended gear will need to be made far more clear for this to happen, as Ascended gear is basically required to do Raid content and Raid content is what many people play MMOs for.

However I digress, after learning all the intricacies and asking too many questions 2 and 1/2 weeks later I was fully ascended and ready to raid. Along my path every sub community I met, the hardcore fractal runners the hardcore PvE Meta grinders and everyone in-between was so friendly and I had some great times and met some great people who helped me stumble along.

Now I'm there I'm ready to raid Iv watched every boss fight and I have practiced my rotations and my build and gear is perfect. So i go looking for my first Raid and I see every raid even training raids have this annotation.. kp, I'm like what is kp? I tried to get into several Raid "Training" groups and all asked for kp. so I asked in the Map chat and I was told by a friendly passer by that Kp stands for Kill Proof and most Raid groups want it even new player raid groups. So I asked well how is anyone supposed to get kp if you cant get into a raid without kp that makes no sense. He and a few others told me "Fake it till you make it" They actively encourage to study the bosses then just fake item chat codes to act like I have kp to get into groups.

In all the MMOs I have played from Dark age of Camelot to mythic WoW raiding I have never herd of such an Elitist exclusive community based system that is so off putting and punishing to new players. This system will absolutely not be sustainable for a prolonged future, Casual players Raider or not are the heart of the game. We need Casuals to keep the game alive, We need a system over haul in my opinion that removes kp tokens from the game entirely and I propose to have a Gear score esc system similar to the Agony Resistance in fractals because that is also hardcore end game content at T4 and I don't see anywhere near the level of elitism there so maybe in Raids a similar system can work as well.

So Between the convoluted path to a full Ascenened set of gear and the Elitiest end game community I don't believe the current climate is suitable for a prolonged future we may get a scourge of new players from steam and the new expansion but I guarantee as my friends where all new and returning players will be turned off of the game For these reasons.

 

**Proposed solutions**

* Have a Agony Resistance esc. system that locks raid wings based on resistance levels

* Have a INGAME clear and concise path to Ascended gear with details

* Possible some kind of true group finder system that automatically detects Gear score and will show you what wings you can queue for similar to WoWs.

* Remove all kp tokens

* Add an inspect future to other players so if people want to form there own groups they still can do that and do gear checks.

 

In Conclusion, I'm just a casual player I only have about 1,150 hours or so now and I know most of the player base now has far more than me. But this is just why I felt turned off from the game as a returning player and why my friends who where watching my journey on stream where turned off ,obviously this is just my opinion. Have a good day everyone! I hope to see you in Tyria

[Excursion.9752]

I am not here to dash any of your ideas but I do want to say you have to find 9 other people that are like minded and start a group. Because people who have the same amount of experience as you will be okay with failing.

 

The hard fact of the matter is, is that people don't want to waste their time. Trying to "carry" someone new to an instance can be very unappealing. Even if you are 100% sure that you are ready. Because no matter how many videos one watches it will never prepare you for those "Oh Sh**" moments.

 

What I believe this game needs is a better way to actually learn/teach raids but that is a debate for another day.

[Danikat.8537]

To be totally honest if someone told me they're going to get GW2 specifically so they can raid I'd ask if they're sure they've got the right game. Raiding is a very small part of this game and not something which is likely to become more common or more important any time soon, so I think anyone whose sole interest was raiding is likely to end up disappointed and much better served by a different game which is more raid-focused.

 

Assuming they still want to play GW2 I'd tell them not to rush to level 80 and take the time to learn how the game works by playing other areas of PvE first because it's likely to be very different from whichever MMO they played last and expecting to play it in exactly the same way is going to lead to all sort of problems. Then I'd tell them when they're ready they should join a training guild - either a dedicated raid training one a new player/progression focused one which includes raids as one of their activities) which will not only be more receptive to new players joining groups but should also be able to help with things like how to get ascended gear. (I assume strike missions are the best choice now, especially for raiders, but I'm not sure.)

 

I think it's highly misleading to say that if raiding isn't re-designed to mimic the systems used in other games it will affect the games overall population, because raiding is just not that important in GW2. It's quite common to find people who have been playing this game since release, still play actively and have rarely or never raided. If anything I think the fact that it's not funnelling players into the same activities as other MMOs is one of it's strengths because it means it appeals to different people and so isn't competing for the same limited pool of potential players.

[Sigmoid.7082]

This would be a better post of it was about you instead of the current flavour of "steam release. Please change or it will fail."

[keenedge.9675]

Remember, ascended armor is not needed at all for raids, just demanded, exotic should be plenty if you play well. The most important thing is individual player skill and a decent amount of damage output. Some raiders have found out that different raids are BEST with a certain group compostion and so they demand that. The rest is just icing on top.

[Randulf.7614]

Ascended is required for fractals. It is not required for raids, it is just useful to have for raids. The paths to ascended are already numerous enough

 

Raids are also a tiny part of the game. Could accessibility be improved? Sure - that's what Strike Missions attempted to do, but it doesn't seemed to have worked since the problems just duplicated across. But, there is so much more to the game, I don;t think it should be putting players off from playing it.

 

Raids are most certainly not what people play GW2 for though, not by a long shot

 

 

[PeerlessArch.6547]

If you post a group for raid **TRAINING**, why the kitten would you need KP? Isn't the point of a raid **training** group to train newer players on the raids and its mechanics?

 

If you don't want to "waste your time" then don't put training in your raid group description.

 

[Raknar.4735]

Steam players are going to do just fine. PSO2, Warframe and PoE are convoluted messes, too, and they manage just fine.

 

If the new players determine any content isn't for them, then so be it. Anet will gain new stats they can act upon then.

 

While I agree with many of your points, I don't think the instanced endgame is the main driving force that keeps players around. Sure, a large amount of new Steam players will quit a month into the release, but that's a given. Happened to every game that releases on Steam.

[Linken.6345]

OP all the raid squads you saw in the lfg asking for KP are not training groups.

 

Its quite rare to see a training group in the lfg at all.

[AliamRationem.5172]

A few thoughts:

 

You don't need ascended gear for anything other than fractal progression.

 

Join a guild that does regular raid training sessions. You can learn in the training raids and then start filling in as a sub for their regulars until a static spot is available for you.

 

Use the wiki. It tells you how ascended gear may be acquired.

 

Raids are not intended for casual players and they are not the focal point of this game. If we need more casual players, focusing on raiding at all is a fail plan from the get go.

 

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"guardian of fortuide.1724" said:

> **Proposed solutions**

> * Have a Agony Resistance esc. system that locks raid wings based on resistance levels

Raid have nothing to do with AR... why gate them with it?

> * Have a INGAME clear and concise path to Ascended gear with details

Like vendors in the Fractal Lobby, PvP lobby, Raid Lobby, Strike Lobby, WvW Spawn points?

Or Collections that unlock when you start filling out an Elite Spec?

Yeah that would be super dope.

They should also add some kind of Epilogue to Heart of Thorns that lets you do a couple collections and a couple instances to earn an ascended weapon and notify the player with an ingame mail.

Wow.... you are totally on to something.

> * Possible some kind of true group finder system that automatically detects Gear score and will show you what wings you can queue for similar to WoWs.

Or they can not gate players by Gear Score and let the player's skill determine the content they are ready for instead of a tired old "you must be this tall to get on this ride" system that allows poor play to be masked behind gear.

> * Add an inspect future to other players so if people want to form there own groups they still can do that and do gear checks.

Your only good suggestion.... good luck selling it on this forum.

> In Conclusion, I'm just a casual player I only have about 1,150 hours or so now and I know most of the player base now has far more than me.

As a "casual player" you would also realize the path to BiS weapons and armor in this game is far easier/simpler than any other MMO.

[Ashen.2907]

Just to make sure I understand you....2.5 weeks after returning you were in full ascended, but that is too difficult? How long or difficult is it to get max raiding gear in your other MMOs?

 

Personally I prefer the original stated goal for the game where characters, "by max level," would have acquired BiS gear.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> Just to make sure I understand you....2.5 weeks after returning you were in full ascended, but that is too difficult? How long or difficult is it to get max raiding gear in your other MMOs?

>

> Personally I prefer the original stated goal for the game where characters, "by max level," would have acquired BiS gear.

 

That never happened even at the start of the game when you go to max level you were a mix of rare and exotic.

It did not take long to get full exotic however and people complained of nothing to strive for que ascended.

[guardian of fortuide.1724]

I wasn't complaining about the time it took but how confusing it was figuring out how to get ascended gear from a new players perspective. I thought the time requirement wasn't too bad, but alot of new players wont go out of there way figuring out exactly where they need to farm the exotics mats and where to get the recipes. I just felt like it was abit too complicated. If it was just more clear and held your hand alittle more on where to go and what to do I think it would be more appealing to new players. I just want to make gw2 more popular and I think this system of needing 3 websites and prior knowledge where to find these online resources is abit too much for casuals. If I didnt already know where to look online it would have taken me alot longer.

[guardian of fortuide.1724]

 

> Like vendors in the Fractal Lobby, PvP lobby, Raid Lobby, Strike Lobby, WvW Spawn points?

> Or Collections that unlock when you start filling out an Elite Spec?

> Yeah that would be super dope.

 

The fact that I didn't even know you get a free ascended weapon with HoT proves my point. I dont personally like the HoT maps so I would have never played them otherwise. Now I know Ill get an Ascened weapon ill go play the story.

[guardian of fortuide.1724]

 

> > * Have a Agony Resistance esc. system that locks raid wings based on resistance levels

> Raid have nothing to do with AR... why gate them with it?

I was just suggesting they add some other system other than kp, to try to curb Elitist and make raid lobbies more accessible to everyone to at least try. My suggestion was some kind of Gear score system, doesn't have to be agony. They can make a unique one just for raids. doesnt matter, just anything to make raiding more accessible.

[Linken.6345]

> @"guardian of fortuide.1724" said:

>

> > Like vendors in the Fractal Lobby, PvP lobby, Raid Lobby, Strike Lobby, WvW Spawn points?

> > Or Collections that unlock when you start filling out an Elite Spec?

> > Yeah that would be super dope.

>

> The fact that I didn't even know you get a free ascended weapon with HoT proves my point. I dont personally like the HoT maps so I would have never played them otherwise. Now I know Ill get an Ascened weapon ill go play the story.

 

You get for path of fire as well all the elite spec got a collection tied to the weapon they unlock.

 

And what 3 sites, all you need is the wiki.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Tanetris/So_You_Want_To_Gear_a_Character

[ElijahFitzroy.5762]

Hello Guardian,

 

First thing I’d like to address. Crafting in this game can be complicated but you quickly learn how things work by actually doing crafting. Since you’ve only been back less than a month. Either you already had leveled your crafting from way before or you just charged in to make ascended items which is why you were so confused and lost. Those coming into the game brand new will have to start from level 0 and by the time they get to 400-500 crafting they’ll figure out how things work. Also the great thing about this game is you’ll always have helpful people that will help. Ask in any of the main cities and the new people will get help.

 

Secondly, you have been back for less than a month. You haven’t played through HoT or PoF unless you went to PoF to get mounts. Either way if you haven’t played through the expansion areas you SHOULD NOT be doing Raids. There are many mechanics introduced in HoT and PoF that are in the raids and you’ll have no idea how to handle them. (Despite watching videos, without playing that content you wouldn’t know how to recognize the indicators of those mechanics)

 

Also since you haven’t been in HoT you don’t have gliding or mushroom jumping which are used again in several of the first raids you’d in counter. Raiding groups and specifically mesmers wouldn’t want to have to port you up in each raid.

 

So please go through HoT and PoF first. Get your masteries leveled up: gliding, bouncy mushrooms, itzel poison lore ,etcetera.As well going through those zones you’ll unlock the elite specializations which are generally needed in comps for Raids. Very few vanilla builds are used in Raids because they simply don’t give out as much as the elites.

 

Thirdly, many people in this community don’t want others to be able to look at our gear. That is why there isn’t a check gear and thus why speed run groups or static raiding groups ask for KP. It is essentially the player base’s way of checking your AR. This issues is solely the elite raiders asking this, it is not ANet creating this and many would be upset if raids were locked behind another wall.

 

For yourself I would recommend searching for a guild that does training raids you can find them here on the forums.

 

Finally, GW2 raids aren’t like other games raids. There are many more mechanics and they are much more complicated. As others have stated raids can be done in exotic gear. The biggest thing is knowing mechanics and knowing your class. Knowing your rotation helps but with the mechanics that rotation will be interrupted and knowing your toon will help you adapt there.

 

It sounds like you’ve done fractals, which is a good start. The biggest thing you have to realize is raids aren’t like normal raids they take a lot longer and a lot more concentration. Knowing the mechanics and knowing your own class and knowing what builds to bring depending on comp and the specific fight.

 

In the end keep looking for actual training groups. Weather in LFG or finding a training raid guild. You’ll get there. But first make sure to get your masteries and your elite specializations via going through the HoT story and PoF story and exploring the world.

 

Welcome back to GW2 by the way.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"guardian of fortuide.1724" said:

> Now I'm there I'm ready to raid Iv watched every boss fight and I have practiced my rotations and my build and gear is perfect. So i go looking for my first Raid and I see every raid even training raids have this annotation.. kp, I'm like what is kp? I tried to get into several Raid "Training" groups and all asked for kp. so I asked in the Map chat and I was told by a friendly passer by that Kp stands for Kill Proof and most Raid groups want it even new player raid groups. So I asked well how is anyone supposed to get kp if you cant get into a raid without kp that makes no sense. He and a few others told me "Fake it till you make it" They actively encourage to study the bosses then just fake item chat codes to act like I have kp to get into groups.

 

There are different trainings just as there are different difficulties dependent on which raid wing or boss you aim for. If there were trainings with KP, the chance is high they were for more advanced raid wings.

 

> @"guardian of fortuide.1724" said:

> In all the MMOs I have played from Dark age of Camelot to mythic WoW raiding I have never herd of such an Elitist exclusive community based system that is so off putting and punishing to new players.

 

So, to take your example of WoW mythic raiding. When you did raid in WoW, did you start off right with the hardest mythic raid wing strait out the bat? How many runs did it take you to master that fight? Are you understanding what I am getting at?

 

You are right now at the level of where most players in WoW are when they enter LFR or maybe normal mode, with 0 experience of actual content. Yet you question why you are not allowed into mythic raid content.

 

> @"guardian of fortuide.1724" said:

> In Conclusion, I'm just a casual player I only have about 1,150 hours or so now and I know most of the player base now has far more than me. But this is just why I felt turned off from the game as a returning player and why my friends who where watching my journey on stream where turned off ,obviously this is just my opinion. Have a good day everyone! I hope to see you in Tyria

 

You are putting far to much emphasis on gear, and far to little on player skill. You could have skipped the entire part of getting ascended gear and just gone for exotic gear and had no issue to get into raiding, if you applied to a guild which does trainings or joined a training discord. By the way all advice given left and right by experienced players as to how to approach raiding.

 

Unfortunately the LFG is just a far to limited resource to find training runs, both because of the type of players who use the LFG, players who leave after 1-2 fails which prolongues downtime, and the organizational requirements to hold a proper training run.

 

Here is a very informative guide video on how to get into raiding:

[Danikat.8537]

> @"guardian of fortuide.1724" said:

> I wasn't complaining about the time it took but how confusing it was figuring out how to get ascended gear from a new players perspective. I thought the time requirement wasn't too bad, but alot of new players wont go out of there way figuring out exactly where they need to farm the exotics mats and where to get the recipes. I just felt like it was abit too complicated. If it was just more clear and held your hand alittle more on where to go and what to do I think it would be more appealing to new players. I just want to make gw2 more popular and I think this system of needing 3 websites and prior knowledge where to find these online resources is abit too much for casuals. If I didnt already know where to look online it would have taken me alot longer.

 

New casual players do not need to know how to get ascended gear because they do not need to use it. Ascended is not required for anything except higher tier Fractals (and then only for the agony resistance) and recommended for raids. Its a long-term goal for hardcore players looking to do the hardest instanced content in the game.

 

I understand you're trying to treat this game like WoW, where everyone is funnelled into raids, but it's not. In GW2 raids are purely designed to be challenging end-game content for hardcore players who want something more difficult (or at least requiring much more group coordination) than any other part of PvE can offer. They're also entirely optional. There is absolutely no need for a new or casual player to be funnelled into raids and IMO a risk that if they were they would miss out on the vast majority of what the game has to offer and may end up with the mistaken impression that it's not the right game for them.

 

Secondly it would be hugely misleading to give anyone, especially casual players, the impression that as soon as you have ascended gear you're ready for raids because again this game does not work like that. The rarity of your equipment makes relatively little difference to what you can achieve. What's more important is having a good build and knowing how to use it. A skilled player in exotics, or even rares, could wipe the floor with an inexperienced player in full ascended and as several people have said a good player can raid in exotics, and could then gradually build up ascended from doing the raids themselves.

 

Even when you are looking at upgrading your gear having the right stat combination is far more important than having the highest possible tier. A new player could easily waste a lot of time and materials making the wrong ascended set if they don't know what stats are best for their build and play style. And if they follow a guide to put a build together and then expect their gear to carry them because it's the best they can get they're in for a lot of nasty surprises. Even in open-world maps that won't work.

 

As I said the most important thing for new players to learn is that GW2 is not their last MMO re-skinned and they cannot play it like it is or they'll run into a lot of problems. IMO the best way to do that is to let them explore the game and learn what's available and how it works, not funnelling them into the hardest instanced content because it's probably what they're used to being pushed into in other games.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"guardian of fortuide.1724" said:

> We need Casuals to keep the game alive, We need a system over haul in my opinion that removes kp tokens from the game entirely and I propose to have a Gear score esc system similar to the Agony Resistance in fractals because that is also hardcore end game content at T4 and I don't see anywhere near the level of elitism there so maybe in Raids a similar system can work as well.

 

There were many complaints about "kp" in the past and Arenanet responded by not adding kp in Strike Missions. It backfired marvelously, as instead of asking for Strike Mission kp (that doesn't exist) players are asking for Raid kp instead. Requiring kp from Raids to play content that's supposed to be the bridge to Raids, brilliant design on Anet's part. And if anyone says it wasn't their fault, anyone could see this happening from miles away. As for removing kp, you are an old players as you claim. Do you remember how we were running dungeons "back in the day"? With no kp the players will go back to asking for silly requirements like the number of achievement points. The problem with kp-like features is the expectation of players that they can use the LFG and treat the other players as their carriers to take them through the content, instead of finding a guild, friends, and other like-minded players to enjoy the game with.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

The search-box of the LFG works as every search-box on the internet. You can use it to filter the lists. You can write -li and -kp, which will result in making only groups visible which do not require those two. The list will be significantly smaller.

 

The situation with Raids and also Strikemissions is, we have a mixed community. There are the established veteran elites, who just want to get their farms done with a skilled group. And there are the new players who want to learn and give it a try. Both use the same LFG. So when you join in for the first time, you are overwhelmed by the abbreviations and minimum requirements for groups. If you use the filter as I mentioned above, you may realize that most of these groups are not interested in newbies in general.

 

Raid trainings which require KP and LI is something special. Usually specific training of certain mechanics, so they require experience. It is not training as "we train you from scratch!" It goes more into "you are good? we make you even better!" That is also some kind of training.

 

The standard recommendation for starting raids is always the same: Find a guild that introduces players into raids. They have the patience and the skill to train people properly. Learning raids with LFG groups, may not work out.

 

GW2 is still on the market after 8+ years, because it has some unique features. One of them is our lack of a real gear-treadmill. Except for T2+ Fractals, you are fine with exotic gear in every other game-mode. The stat-gain of ascended is minimal, Legendaries are just for the visuals and easy stat-changing. You can gear a character, go on a 2 years break, return and continue playing.

 

The KP tokens are guildhall decorations. Yes, we still use them. LI are used to craft legendary armor.

 

 

 

 

 

[Danikat.8537]

Incidentally Anet didn't directly add KP. The items players ask for all have other uses (mostly they're tokens to get guild decorations), they're just used as proof you've done the raid before (and how many times) because they're only available from killing the raid bosses.

 

I think they must have known they'd be used as KP when they did that, and maybe on that basis they shouldn't have done it, but I suspect they also knew that players would find some way of gating raids no matter what. We used to have a completely absurd and pointless system where dungeon speed clear groups demanded a minimum number of achievement points (AP) to let you join. Not only can you get loads of AP without ever doing a dungeon but they're not even a good source of AP, so experienced dungeon runners could actually have relatively low AP. But there was no actual dungeon KP so they used whatever they could to exclude some of the newest and most casual players.

 

(Also any game will have it's elitists. I found out over the weekend that my area has a "secret" exclusive Pokemon Go trading group which I don't qualify to join because there's a minimum quota for how many shiny/legendary/rare pokemon you trade and I don't catch enough of them. This is Pokemon Go, one of the most casual of casual games out there and they've still found a way to make a special little elitist club to exclude the casuals. People who want to do that will do it no matter how the game they're playing actually works. If you don't want to deal with their arbitrary rules the best thing to do is find other people to play with instead.)

[guardian of fortuide.1724]

I completely understand Elitist communities will always exist, and Anet has removed kp in the past from cm fractals to try and curb Elitist. I think they should for sure consider something similar shortly after the steam release. Because I'm sure there will be a mass influx of new players who want to see what GW2 endgame has to offer, and I believe everyone deserves a chance to see it and shouldn't be gatekept by arbitration set by the Elite community that's BS.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"guardian of fortuide.1724" said:

> I completely understand Elitist communities will always exist, and Anet has removed kp in the past from cm fractals to try and curb Elitist. I think they should for sure consider something similar shortly after the steam release. Because I'm sure there will be a mass influx of new players who want to see what GW2 endgame has to offer, and I believe everyone deserves a chance to see it and shouldn't be gatekept by arbitration set by the Elite community that's BS.

 

To some extent I agree, but the key to understanding GW2 is that raids are a very tiny part of the endgame whereas it is the endgame in other mmos