Ragazm.6018 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Basically i got lose strikes where i got -16 -15 and then i got "win" strikes where i got +12 +13. So in the end I'm even not in same place where i was yesterday, but little bit worse. Also "top stats", if they does not mean anything to ranking system, can it be just removed, because it adds even more frustration, constantly seeing "top stats" but going down in ranking. And yes, DH burn, that's is just blatant "bug", interestingly no one cares from Anet despite its so obvious. Apparently it's just not worth continuing playing sPvP, because if you are not lucky and system think you a not deserved higher ranking than you are doomed like for whole season. And again, please can we remove tops stats, as these really cause only frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multicolorhipster.9751 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Agree. Rating gain/loss should be more skill-based rather than totally RNG, and top stats aren't a very good measurement of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loboling.5293 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Top stats are fun indicators, but they don't tell you much. The true measure of skill in this game comes down to rotations. If you ran back and stopped a decap 10 times in a game, that doesn't show up on the scoreboard, but rotations are key to victory. As much as it can be frustrating watching newer players profess about their skills because they got top stats, I still like seeing the information. I wouldn't mind including decap counter. But while the system is bare bones, I'd rather not remove it. Hopefully people realize that losing with top damage, but zero points is not winning. Although if your defense & offense are below 20%, you should probably fight more around the points. So the information is not useless I guess. But at least it's fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalisto.5780 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Yes, top stats are misleading Stats themselves are helpful so you know how you doing compared to other players, they need just to stop highlighting them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomNexus.5324 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 > @"Ragazm.6018" said: > Basically i got lose strikes where i got -16 -15 and then i got "win" strikes where i got +12 +13. Yea, so your rating is higher than your/the opponent's team average. Don't see the problem with the numbers. The low population just forces the MM to match guys together with too much deviation. It's garbage but we can't change it... Gaining +0 when winning is actually a thing btw. > Apparently it's just not worth continuing playing sPvP, because if you are not lucky and system think you a not deserved higher ranking than you are doomed like for whole season. Yes, without full team queue in ranked it's almost pure luck. I'm barely playing ranked anymore and even then I'm just playing for the league rewards. Unranked is imho actually way more fun at this point. Or doing AT. I think the only reason why people are still bothering with ranked are the rewards. People who didn't grind the shit out of pvp when it was still "kind of fun" and don't already have tons of Ascended shards and stuff.. Or titles/gizmos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragazm.6018 Posted February 5, 2021 Author Share Posted February 5, 2021 That's actually quite sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 It is not luck. It is not very precise (+- like 50 rating points, depending on daily shape and all. Maybe some more when wintrading, duoing etc. is involved ), but GLICKO is fine. How else do you explain why it is always the same people in high ranks? Ranked gives me way more even matches than unranked. That is part of the matchmaking algorithm, which allows higher rating deviations between players in unranked. Add in the fact of teamQ, people playing troll builds and learning new ones and you have actually random resulty. I am experiencing way **way** more blow outs in unranked than in ranked. Usually people are just not as good as they think or their build is terrible. Play for fun, not for rating, and learn from mistakes and losses. You will climb ranks with time. (And when tryharding, play anything with revenant. Because, you know, it is a class favoured by good players...) A suggestion: Would it help if the skill rating only showed at the end of the season? Seeing these results seems to lead to a lot of toxicity and frustration, even though the values are - from a GLICKO-point of view - perfectly fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert.3574 Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 my guild member (was) he use cheating and wintrader ez get top 4 till down top 9 get title final day now he even 1400 cant lol spvp rating just joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > GLICKO is fine. How else do you explain why it is always the same people in high ranks? Glicko is the worst system that could have been chosen for a 5v5 game mode, for every reason. People show up in the same relative rankings each season not because Glicko is working, but because the same people cheat each season, same people who get targeted each season, and the same people who only ever play fairly each season. Doesn't mean Glicko is working, doesn't mean there isn't match manipulation. > > Ranked gives me way more even matches than unranked. That is part of the matchmaking algorithm, which allows higher rating deviations between players in unranked. Add in the fact of teamQ, people playing troll builds and learning new ones and you have actually random resulty. I am experiencing way **way** more blow outs in unranked than in ranked. I was 1599 rated in ranked this season and r24 or something like that in NA. Then about 80 games in, I pissed off some certain group of players, and now for the last 30 games or so, I've been playing at 1400-1420 range and can barely stay out of gold 2. It just depends on how much you are ignored/overlooked or targeted in ranked. > > Usually people are just not as good as they think or their build is terrible. Play for fun, not for rating, and learn from mistakes and losses. You will climb ranks with time. > (And when tryharding, play anything with revenant. Because, you know, it is a class favoured by good players...) That's actually not true, in all honestly. There are walls of social stigma to surprass. Anyone can rise to about 1500 normally or organically. But going past 1500 into 1600 or higher, requires either being ignored completely by everyone in the community or becoming favored by everyone, so throw play doesn't target you. If you've ever given the match manipulators any reason to not like you, you will never see top 100 placement ever again. > > A suggestion: Would it help if the skill rating only showed at the end of the season? Seeing these results seems to lead to a lot of toxicity and frustration, even though the values are - from a GLICKO-point of view - perfectly fine. Glicko is botched and so is solo/duo only synch queue throwing that has no administrative action being take against it. What would help is if Arenanet did an actual real ban phase. One where accounts were removed permanently for match manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Top Stats give extra pips, just like being in Platinum does as well. The higher you go in the leaderboard the less you'll be rewarded as you get closer to the peak of competition. It's always been like that and because you feel like you're doing worst due to the current ranking in badges, it would be no different than if there was more players and Legendary being readily available again. When you're on top, you can only be rewarded properly by fighting people your own size or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robban.1256 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Ragazm.6018" said: > Basically i got lose strikes where i got -16 -15 and then i got "win" strikes where i got +12 +13. > So in the end I'm even not in same place where i was yesterday, but little bit worse. > Also "top stats", if they does not mean anything to ranking system, can it be just removed, because it adds even more frustration, constantly seeing "top stats" but going down in ranking. > > And yes, DH burn, that's is just blatant "bug", interestingly no one cares from Anet despite its so obvious. > > Apparently it's just not worth continuing playing sPvP, because if you are not lucky and system think you a not deserved higher ranking than you are doomed like for whole season. > > And again, please can we remove tops stats, as these really cause only frustration. > > @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said: In a recent random sample of 100,000 matches, we found that in approximately 95% of matches, the difference between the average skill rating of each team was less than 50 points. The matchmaker is doing a good job in most cases. Things get more problematic at the very low and very high skill ratings. Our change to duo queue for 1600+ ranked players is part of our efforts to address this. In addition to that modification, we’re working on some fine tuning on the matchmaker. Our simulation with the proposed changes extended the favorable difference ratio mentioned above from 95% to over 99% of matches. I can’t give you specific dates on when these changes go live, but we’ll be looking to trial them on the unranked queue somewhat soon™. One thing to keep in mind is that just because the average skill rating of each team is close, that doesn’t mean you won’t have a blowout match. Some maps just tend to snowball, some players tend to give up when they get a bit behind, etc. This can lead to a blowout even if the average skill rating of each team was fairly close. I know we have top stats, but they don't generally tell the whole story. Individual performance is a very situational thing. If we tried to adjust ratings based on stats, we'd have people chasing stats rather than the win. That's why we value the win over everything else. @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said: @Forsty.7968 is correct in that we use the composite opponent method for rating changes. I think we may have tried the composite team method in the past and it didn't work well. I could be wrong about that, as it was before I joined the PvP team. The problem with composite teams is that it basically never gets people to a rating that reflects their real skill. There's a graduate student master's thesis on the topic if you're interested. http://rhetoricstudios.com/downloads/AbstractingGlicko2ForTeamGames.pdf And for you who doesn't know who Ben is he is one of the pvp devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Robban.1256" said: > @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said: > In a recent random sample of 100,000 matches, we found that in approximately 95% of matches, the difference between the average skill rating of each team was less than 50 points. The matchmaker is doing a good job in most cases. Which really doesnt matter, because the scoring system is still fucked up. Its the primary reason people quit sPvP - its been the reason ever since ranked was added. People can whine over classes on the forum all day long, if the mode itself is fucked it doesn't matter. You can have a *good match* that was a hard fight between equally skilled opponents and... loose so much points its unrecoverable unless you win the next 3 matches in a row. Given that many won't even run that many matches in a row if they are into more casual PvP, whats even the point of **trying**? Loose 2-500 or loose 498-500, same thing the game says you suck heres equal penalties for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynz.9437 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Robban.1256" said: > > @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said: > > In a recent random sample of 100,000 matches, we found that in approximately 95% of matches, the difference between the average skill rating of each team was less than 50 points. The matchmaker is doing a good job in most cases. > Which really doesnt matter, because the scoring system is still kitten up. Its the primary reason people quit sPvP - its been the reason ever since ranked was added. People can whine over classes on the forum all day long, if the mode itself is kitten it doesn't matter. > > You can have a *good match* that was a hard fight between equally skilled opponents and... loose so much points its unrecoverable unless you win the next 3 matches in a row. Given that many won't even run that many matches in a row if they are into more casual PvP, whats even the point of **trying**? **Loose 2-500 or loose 498-500, same thing the game says you suck heres equal penalties for it**. That is actually my experience. Even worse, you lose something like 50-500 and lose even more points than your 498-500 loss which still blows my mind. But i am at the point where i just don't care. I do my 1-3 matches a day and go pve. PvP is a joke in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I think there's a problem a lot of people don't appreciate. Human's play this game. To spell it out, you could have won/lost that match for any of the following reasons: 1-10 players had to spend 2 minutes away from their keyboard for a multitude of reasons. 1-10 players were just playing bad that day. 1-10 players were tired due to poor sleep the night before. 1-10 players had lower blood sugar as they forgot to eat on time. 1-10 players got tilted due to the straw that broke the camels back. 1-10 players decided they just don't like someone else on either team and so played differently. 1-10 players disagrees with another person and so causes team conflict. These are all reasons why people may play differently to normal **and the game has no real way of measuring or taking this into account** so before you start saying the matchmaking is not working stop to think of the logistics of making it work. Then you might realise it's actually doing a decent job, is it perfect? No but good players can climb, bad players by and large end up near the bottom. "Why do I see bad players in Plat then???" Low population and poor balance of risk/reward, that isn't the matchmakers fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SexyMofo.8923 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Another one bites the dust. This mode just can’t win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > GLICKO is fine. How else do you explain why it is always the same people in high ranks? > > Glicko is the worst system that could have been chosen for a 5v5 game mode, for every reason. > > People show up in the same relative rankings each season not because Glicko is working, but because the same people cheat each season, same people who get targeted each season, and the same people who only ever play fairly each season. Doesn't mean Glicko is working, doesn't mean there isn't match manipulation. > > > > > Ranked gives me way more even matches than unranked. That is part of the matchmaking algorithm, which allows higher rating deviations between players in unranked. Add in the fact of teamQ, people playing troll builds and learning new ones and you have actually random resulty. I am experiencing way **way** more blow outs in unranked than in ranked. > > I was 1599 rated in ranked this season and r24 or something like that in NA. Then about 80 games in, I pissed off some certain group of players, and now for the last 30 games or so, I've been playing at 1400-1420 range and can barely stay out of gold 2. > > It just depends on how much you are ignored/overlooked or targeted in ranked. > > > > > Usually people are just not as good as they think or their build is terrible. Play for fun, not for rating, and learn from mistakes and losses. You will climb ranks with time. > > (And when tryharding, play anything with revenant. Because, you know, it is a class favoured by good players...) > > That's actually not true, in all honestly. There are walls of social stigma to surprass. Anyone can rise to about 1500 normally or organically. But going past 1500 into 1600 or higher, requires either being ignored completely by everyone in the community or becoming favored by everyone, so throw play doesn't target you. If you've ever given the match manipulators any reason to not like you, you will never see top 100 placement ever again. > > > > > A suggestion: Would it help if the skill rating only showed at the end of the season? Seeing these results seems to lead to a lot of toxicity and frustration, even though the values are - from a GLICKO-point of view - perfectly fine. > > Glicko is botched and so is solo/duo only synch queue throwing that has no administrative action being take against it. > > What would help is if Arenanet did an actual real ban phase. One where accounts were removed permanently for match manipulation. Literally not a single point has to do with GLICKO...? Proper penalties for bad manners, cheating, match manipulation, botting and all that would be great though, yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > I think there's a problem a lot of people don't appreciate. > > Human's play this game. > > To spell it out, you could have won/lost that match for any of the following reasons: > 1-10 players had to spend 2 minutes away from their keyboard for a multitude of reasons. > 1-10 players were just playing bad that day. > 1-10 players were tired due to poor sleep the night before. > 1-10 players had lower blood sugar as they forgot to eat on time. > 1-10 players got tilted due to the straw that broke the camels back. > 1-10 players decided they just don't like someone else on either team and so played differently. > 1-10 players disagrees with another person and so causes team conflict. I just want to mention most, if not all of these can be addressed with premades, and that these reasons for loss are all worse than "enemy team was more organized". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robban.1256 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Robban.1256" said: > > @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said: > > In a recent random sample of 100,000 matches, we found that in approximately 95% of matches, the difference between the average skill rating of each team was less than 50 points. The matchmaker is doing a good job in most cases. > Which really doesnt matter, because the scoring system is still kitten up. Its the primary reason people quit sPvP - its been the reason ever since ranked was added. People can whine over classes on the forum all day long, if the mode itself is kitten it doesn't matter. > > You can have a *good match* that was a hard fight between equally skilled opponents and... loose so much points its unrecoverable unless you win the next 3 matches in a row. Given that many won't even run that many matches in a row if they are into more casual PvP, whats even the point of **trying**? Loose 2-500 or loose 498-500, same thing the game says you suck heres equal penalties for it. kitten doesnt tell what you are meaning, and you can read everything why on the thesis. Glicko is mathematically better than Elo, but requires more calculation. Elo was conceived around 1970 and could be calculated without a computer. Glicko is only practical with a computer. Glicko and Elo should reach the same rating, but Glicko reaches the right rating faster. Glicko-2 is more modern system than Elo and encounters such factors as new people in the pool and changes in strength to adjust speed of rating change. If two continents implement Glicko or Elo and the players of the two continents never play one another, then when they start playing intercontinental it will always show that one continent is overrated and one is underrated. Only if they play intercontinental will the ratings on both continents equalize. That is also the case with FIDE rating and USCF rating: USCF is overrated as compared to FIDE. The Glicko system isn't just based on your current rating, it also takes into account the volatility of that rating based on the standard deviation of your results over time. The variance in point loss/gain for similar point differences has to do with each individual players' rating deviation (uncertainty). Players with high RD will earn or lose more points when they win or lose respectively. e.g. -If you loose against a weaker opponent, or win against a stronger opponent, that will affect your rating more than loosing to a stronger opponent or beating a weaker opponent. I will not reprint the Glick equations here because they are much more complex than the Elo equation, but for the mathematically curious an overview that includes the equations can be found here http://www.glicko.net/glicko.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samnang.1879 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > Human's play this game. > Do they? :# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choovanski.5462 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > I think there's a problem a lot of people don't appreciate. > > > > Human's play this game. > > > > To spell it out, you could have won/lost that match for any of the following reasons: > > 1-10 players had to spend 2 minutes away from their keyboard for a multitude of reasons. > > 1-10 players were just playing bad that day. > > 1-10 players were tired due to poor sleep the night before. > > 1-10 players had lower blood sugar as they forgot to eat on time. > > 1-10 players got tilted due to the straw that broke the camels back. > > 1-10 players decided they just don't like someone else on either team and so played differently. > > 1-10 players disagrees with another person and so causes team conflict. > > I just want to mention most, if not all of these can be addressed with premades, and that these reasons for loss are all worse than "enemy team was more organized". bro they will never listen  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel.8721 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 People and devs can say whatever they want, have duo queue and solo queue fighting on the same match is bizarre, unfair and trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul.2710 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 > @"choovanski.5462" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > I think there's a problem a lot of people don't appreciate. > > > > > > Human's play this game. > > > > > > To spell it out, you could have won/lost that match for any of the following reasons: > > > 1-10 players had to spend 2 minutes away from their keyboard for a multitude of reasons. > > > 1-10 players were just playing bad that day. > > > 1-10 players were tired due to poor sleep the night before. > > > 1-10 players had lower blood sugar as they forgot to eat on time. > > > 1-10 players got tilted due to the straw that broke the camels back. > > > 1-10 players decided they just don't like someone else on either team and so played differently. > > > 1-10 players disagrees with another person and so causes team conflict. > > > > I just want to mention most, if not all of these can be addressed with premades, and that these reasons for loss are all worse than "enemy team was more organized". > > bro they will never listen > >  > Since gw2 started I still have the same question: "why in hell in Guild Wars(!) there is no actual guild fighting?! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > I think there's a problem a lot of people don't appreciate. > > Human's play this game. > > To spell it out, you could have won/lost that match for any of the following reasons: > 1-10 players had to spend 2 minutes away from their keyboard for a multitude of reasons. > 1-10 players were just playing bad that day. > 1-10 players were tired due to poor sleep the night before. > 1-10 players had lower blood sugar as they forgot to eat on time. > 1-10 players got tilted due to the straw that broke the camels back. > 1-10 players decided they just don't like someone else on either team and so played differently. > 1-10 players disagrees with another person and so causes team conflict. > > These are all reasons why people may play differently to normal **and the game has no real way of measuring or taking this into account** so before you start saying the matchmaking is not working stop to think of the logistics of making it work. Then you might realise it's actually doing a decent job, is it perfect? No but good players can climb, bad players by and large end up near the bottom. > > "Why do I see bad players in Plat then???" Low population and poor balance of risk/reward, that isn't the matchmakers fault. yep, for example I play pvp after night shift due to my insomnia. sucks to be my team I guess, when mesmer main plays ranger while dead on his feet at fucking 7am XD extra points when im tilted, sleepy and laggy to boot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tridentuk.1625 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 Every single competitive game is the same deal. Go to league forums, dota forums, sc2 forums- whatever ones you want, there will always be posts about crazy win streaks followed by loss streaks or vice versa. Also people just have good and bad days, you may not be able to feel it but there should be days when your concepts are clearer, reflexes sharper, etc. You probably also experience this at work, but because the margins are so much tighter in matchmaking competitive games the results are more noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Robban.1256" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Robban.1256" said: > > > @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said: > > > In a recent random sample of 100,000 matches, we found that in approximately 95% of matches, the difference between the average skill rating of each team was less than 50 points. The matchmaker is doing a good job in most cases. > > Which really doesnt matter, because the scoring system is still kitten up. Its the primary reason people quit sPvP - its been the reason ever since ranked was added. People can whine over classes on the forum all day long, if the mode itself is kitten it doesn't matter. > > > > You can have a *good match* that was a hard fight between equally skilled opponents and... loose so much points its unrecoverable unless you win the next 3 matches in a row. Given that many won't even run that many matches in a row if they are into more casual PvP, whats even the point of **trying**? Loose 2-500 or loose 498-500, same thing the game says you suck heres equal penalties for it. > > kitten doesnt tell what you are meaning, and you can read everything why on the thesis. Glicko is mathematically better than Elo, but requires more calculation. Elo was conceived around 1970 and could be calculated without a computer. Glicko is only practical with a computer. > Glicko and Elo should reach the same rating, but Glicko reaches the right rating faster. Glicko-2 is more modern system than Elo and encounters such factors as new people in the pool and changes in strength to adjust speed of rating change. > > If two continents implement Glicko or Elo and the players of the two continents never play one another, then when they start playing intercontinental it will always show that one continent is overrated and one is underrated. Only if they play intercontinental will the ratings on both continents equalize. > That is also the case with FIDE rating and USCF rating: USCF is overrated as compared to FIDE. > > The Glicko system isn't just based on your current rating, it also takes into account the volatility of that rating based on the standard deviation of your results over time. > The variance in point loss/gain for similar point differences has to do with each individual players' rating deviation (uncertainty). Players with high RD will earn or lose more points when they win or lose respectively. > e.g. -If you loose against a weaker opponent, or win against a stronger opponent, that will affect your rating more than loosing to a stronger opponent or beating a weaker opponent. > > I will not reprint the Glick equations here because they are much more complex than the Elo equation, but for the mathematically curious an overview that includes the equations can be found here http://www.glicko.net/glicko.html > Sadly I doubt many will read or understand the mechanics of glicko or why it's actually pretty decent with a good population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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