Can we actually get some skills that reveals baseline?

[Math.5123]

Ìnvis is in abundance currently. The new Shadow Arts D/P thief, Deadeye and PU mesmer. Holosmith and Smokescale rangers.

 

Invis is such a strong survivability tool, that also allows you to hide your rotations and frankly, resustain on demand. There are currently VERY few counters too it, and the one counter that does exist is a bugged Engineer trait.

 

Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

 

Also, delete Gazelle from the game.

[Tharan.9085]

Just play DH

[PaRaPhReNiA.8763]

Why u hate on ranger so much ? :(

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> Ìnvis is in abundance currently. The new Shadow Arts D/P thief, Deadeye and PU mesmer. Holosmith and Smokescale rangers.

>

> Invis is such a strong survivability tool, that also allows you to hide your rotations and frankly, resustain on demand. There are currently VERY few counters too it, and the one counter that does exist is a bugged Engineer trait.

>

> Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

>

> Also, delete Gazelle from the game.

 

Funny you say that, because Invis is the worst survivability tool. In fact, its pretty useless as one. Its good for exactly 2 things. Sneaking up on people. And Running away. If you try to use stealth to survive, youre just gonna die to cleave, AoEs and attacks they started before you entered stealth, all of which will hit you.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

 

Okay but give thieves more active mitigation instead.

[Math.5123]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

>

> Okay but give thieves more active mitigation instead.

 

Like evade frames on almost every weapon set?

[Bazsi.2734]

Good idea. Permareveal on every autoattack!

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

> >

> > Okay but give thieves more active mitigation instead.

>

> Like evade frames on almost every weapon set?

 

Yeah. I want evades on D/P and P/P too.

Yknow. The ones that are sitting ducks without stealth access.

Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lol now sa dp thief is a issue.

Love these forums.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Spvp "stealth is bad, you cant contest nodes, also stealth is op because you ca t been seen"

 

I remember the first time I took shadow arts into spvp 6 years ago and the out cry of stealth was insane, even arguing that the non contest part was meaningless if it means you can quickly kill the other guy from stealth. How things have changed

[Math.5123]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> Good idea. Permareveal on every autoattack!

 

Yes, because that's clearly what I was proposing.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

> > >

> > > Okay but give thieves more active mitigation instead.

> >

> > Like evade frames on almost every weapon set?

>

> Yeah. I want evades on D/P and P/P too.

> Yknow. The ones that are sitting ducks without stealth access.

 

How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.

 

Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Lol now sa dp thief is a issue.

> Love these forums.

 

Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

 

Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

[Kaburro.4712]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Spvp "stealth is bad, you cant contest nodes, also stealth is op because you ca t been seen"

>

> I remember the first time I took shadow arts into spvp 6 years ago and the out cry of stealth was insane, even arguing that the non contest part was meaningless if it means you can quickly kill the other guy from stealth. How things have changed

 

Let me correct you, is not sPVP anymore, only PVP.... Structured is gone long ago.

[bluri.2653]

Buff thief give block invuln and stab

[apharma.3741]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> Buff thief give block invuln and stab

 

I feel this class would need a new name though, it's a bit of a meme so call it memer?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > Buff thief give block invuln and stab

>

> I feel this class would need a new name though, it's a bit of a meme so call it memer?

 

nimble juggernaut

[saerni.2584]

I’m all for adding reveal to Function abilities as long as attacks from stealth (other than Death’s Judgment) no longer apply reveal.

 

I’ve always thought thief should be able to apply reveal after all.

[Math.5123]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I’m all for adding reveal to Function abilities as long as attacks from stealth (other than Death’s Judgment) no longer apply reveal.

>

> I’ve always thought thief should be able to apply reveal after all.

 

You say you stack 10 seconds of invis on a D/P thief, you think you should be able to land ~8 Backstabs without getting revealed?

[saerni.2584]

No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I’m all for adding reveal to Function abilities as long as attacks from stealth (other than Death’s Judgment) no longer apply reveal.

>

> I’ve always thought thief should be able to apply reveal after all.

 

lol d/d memers would one shot an entire team. wvw would implode. the world would end as we know it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

 

Dj->dodge->dj->dodge->steal->DJ->shadow meld->DJ->dodge->DJ

kekW

[saerni.2584]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

>

> Dj->dodge->dj->dodge->steal->DJ->shadow meld->DJ->dodge->DJ

> kekW

 

I literally said except for DJ which has additional reveal built in before the shot fires.

 

And all that assumes every profession gets baseline reveal built into their skills.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

 

?

 

If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.

D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

 

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.

> Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

 

That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

 

> Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

 

The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

 

> Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

 

Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

 

y'know, work with us here.

 

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

 

I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.

Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.

You wont stop me.

Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.

Where am I?

Headmindyagame.

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> Buff thief give block invuln and stab

 

LOl I have seen players jumping from ..thief to warrior , guardian etc to prove a point ..they all got demolished within secs...life it's hard when you can't chain stealth to run away and reset CD..trust me, you fuck up..you die..no shortbow 5 and no 5-2 bye bye

[saerni.2584]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

>

> ?

>

> If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.

> D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

>

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.

> > Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

>

> That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

>

> > Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

>

> The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

>

> > Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

>

> Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

>

> y'know, work with us here.

>

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

>

> I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.

> Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.

> You wont stop me.

> Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.

> Where am I?

> Headmindyagame.

>

>

 

You can already haste and Shadowmeld for multiple backstabs.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > Ìnvis is in abundance currently. The new Shadow Arts D/P thief, Deadeye and PU mesmer. Holosmith and Smokescale rangers.

> >

> > Invis is such a strong survivability tool, that also allows you to hide your rotations and frankly, resustain on demand. There are currently VERY few counters too it, and the one counter that does exist is a bugged Engineer trait.

> >

> > Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

> >

> > Also, delete Gazelle from the game.

>

> Funny you say that, because Invis is the worst survivability tool. In fact, its pretty useless as one. Its good for exactly 2 things. Sneaking up on people. And Running away. If you try to use stealth to survive, youre just gonna die to cleave, AoEs and attacks they started before you entered stealth, all of which will hit you.

 

You mean I can't stealth and then stand there while the warrior does hundred blades on my face? Well, I am just outraged!